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02:00:17 <Puyopuyo> Blargh.
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04:33:33 <Pipian> Okay
04:33:38 <Pipian> Pokemon dailies for real right now
04:33:58 <Pipian> Wonder if I've lost guys from Black City yet
04:34:24 <Puyopuyo> Heh
04:34:57 <Pipian> Haven't battled there in two weeks
04:35:29 <Pipian> And as mentioned before
04:35:36 <Pipian> still haven't actually put anything in dream world
05:30:37 <Pipian> So, basically, Ideon.
05:30:58 <Puyopuyo> ?
05:34:25 <Pipian> But less weird and more sensical
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05:48:35 <Pipian> "Well, peak anime has been reached. Time to close down adtrw. Get your dvds/blurays and some merch and accept that anime is now over."
05:48:41 <Pipian> I would probably agree with this sentiment
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06:51:29 <Pipian> My current sentiment, having just finished Madoka echoes that of a poster on ADTRW:
06:51:30 <Pipian> "Well, peak anime has been reached. Time to close down adtrw. Get your dvds/blurays and some merch and accept that anime is now over."
06:56:49 <Puyopuyo> Why's that?
07:31:35 <Pipian> Well
07:31:43 <Pipian> Granted, the statement is a bit hyperboly
07:31:46 <Pipian> *hyperbole
07:31:51 <Pipian> But as always, there's a bit of truth in it
07:32:05 <Pipian> Considering the trajectory of the anime/manga industry
07:32:32 <Pipian> And its continuing spiral into selling to the NEET market
07:32:55 <Pipian> The number of quality anime has, at best, been stable, if not declining
07:33:14 <Pipian> I am not at all convinced that the market is doing anything other than shrinking
07:34:03 <Pipian> And with a continuous push towards market viability, as with every other form of maturing media, there's going to be more and more fluff and crap, while quality will be harder to find (See: Sturgeon's Law)
07:34:22 <Pipian> Anime is particularly susceptible, however, because of the cost of entry into the market.
07:34:32 <Pipian> There MUST be a good chance of profit turnaround
07:34:37 <Pipian> Or the series won't get made.
07:34:56 <Pipian> Sure there will still be grand/quality anime
07:35:04 <Puyopuyo> So we're making the claim that Madoka is grand/quality anime?
07:35:33 <Pipian> Well, at the very least, the apparent depth (i.e. deconstruction/reconstruction of magical girls as a genre)
07:36:08 <Pipian> Whether or not you agree with the assessment that Madoka is literary
07:36:48 <Pipian> I'm fairly sure you'd agree that a show with the comparative character development it shows and "freshness" of plot is relatively rare
07:36:54 <Pipian> At best once a season, if not less.
07:37:21 <Pipian> But the market will necessarily stick with what it knows
07:37:36 <Puyopuyo> I feel that it showed little character development at best, and "freshness" of plot was non-existent.
07:37:51 <Puyopuyo> One character got some decent development.
07:37:52 <Pipian> I'll grant you that it was extremely predictable
07:38:10 <Pipian> But it also wasn't predictable due to standard anime tropes.
07:38:14 <Pipian> But rather due to other ones
07:38:24 <Puyopuyo> What are the "standard anime tropes" in this example?
07:39:07 <Puyopuyo> It runs the same way Star Driver did. There was only one final direction that they would take, because anything else would be subverting their target audience's desires.
07:39:38 <Pipian> I'm referring to standard plot development over a 13 episode anime (i.e. intro to characters for an episode or two, some fluff for about 2-3 episodes, development of the big bad for another 3-4, and finally an episode or two at the end to seek climax and denoument.)
07:39:56 <Puyopuyo> ...it did that almost to a T.
07:40:12 <Puyopuyo> Introduces Madoka, Sayaka, Mami and Houmura for the first few.
07:40:14 <Pipian> It didn't have the fluff so much.
07:40:28 <Pipian> Nor an explicit big-bad.
07:40:31 <Puyopuyo> QB.
07:40:46 <Pipian> But that's just it
07:40:53 <Pipian> QB wasn't exactly an antagonist per se
07:41:14 <Pipian> Which was part of the subversion of the expected.
07:41:20 <Puyopuyo> ...wasn't exactly?
07:41:37 <Puyopuyo> He was clearly antagonistic and ran as a "master manipulator" type villain, of which we've had many.
07:42:00 <Pipian> But in no way was he actually contending directly with the protagonist.
07:42:13 <Puyopuyo> ...in no way?
07:42:21 <Puyopuyo> "You must make a wish!"
07:42:28 <Puyopuyo> "Actually, that'd get your soul stolen."
07:42:32 <Puyopuyo> "YOU MUST MAKE A WISH!"
07:42:43 <Pipian> What I mean by that is that there was no traditionaly direct conflict between the protagonist and antagonist.
07:43:14 <Puyopuyo> The primary protagonist, no. The secondary protagonist who the series focused more heavily on, yes.
07:43:53 <Pipian> Sure, I'll grant you that
07:43:59 <Puyopuyo> If anything, the primary protagonist was Houmura and Madoka was a plot device.
07:44:11 <Pipian> It's debateable
07:44:34 <Pipian> But that's just it
07:44:38 <Pipian> Unlike standard anime tropes
07:44:42 <Pipian> where the protagonist is obvious
07:44:50 <Pipian> It's debateable who the protagonist is.
07:45:04 <Puyopuyo> Not debatable who the protagonists are though.
07:45:19 <Puyopuyo> There are two. Whomever you, the viewer, deem more important really doesn't mean much.
07:45:25 <Pipian> Point
07:45:37 <Puyopuyo> And again, "standard anime tropes" means little.
07:45:47 <Puyopuyo> Are we comparing Madoka against the moe genre?
07:45:57 <Puyopuyo> If that's the case, then yes, it's good, but that's because almost ANYTHING is.
07:46:01 <Pipian> I mean, I will give you that the story has been done before (well duh, it's pretty overt in its references to Faust after all)
07:46:10 <Puyopuyo> Are we comparing Madoka against many magical girl series?
07:46:19 <Puyopuyo> In that case, it's questionable how much has been subverted.
07:46:42 <Pipian> Subversion?  Not necessarily.  More a deconstruction and reconstruction.
07:47:04 <Puyopuyo> I'm unsure of how it reconstructs.
07:47:10 <Pipian> Much as (some would argue) Evangelion was a deconstruction (but not reconstruction) of the giant robots genre.
07:47:44 <Pipian> The reconstruction is pretty much limited in scope to the second half of the last episode
07:47:47 <Puyopuyo> I am not opposed to lumping it in with Evangelion, but as is well known by you and Nathan, I am not a fan of Evangelion.
07:47:55 <Pipian> So it's a little more difficult to argue that there's a true reconstruction there
07:48:02 <Pipian> I'm not a fan of Eva either
07:48:07 <Puyopuyo> In what sense did it reconstruct?
07:50:24 <Pipian> Consider the whole raison d'etre of magical girls both before and after the deus ex machina
07:50:50 <Pipian> In both senses they battle against that which places humanity in despair
07:50:53 <Pipian> *instances
07:51:25 <Pipian> But whereas in the former, magical girls are, in and of themselves that which brings upon their own self-destruction
07:52:17 <Pipian> In the latter, they're saved (very much in the religious sense) and thus the core of their existence is that of the "just battle" to truly protect humanity
07:52:47 <Pipian> i.e. the traditional magical girl trope of "fighting for justice/hope/a belief/etc."
07:53:00 <Pipian> Thus, a reconstruction
07:53:21 <Puyopuyo> What?
07:53:58 <Pipian> At the very end, the concept of the magical girl is revived in the new world
07:54:13 <Pipian> Except that the foundations are grounded in the more traditional sense
07:54:14 <Puyopuyo> It was never lost given that definition.
07:54:24 <Puyopuyo> They began by fighting for justice/hope/a belief, etc.
07:54:47 <Puyopuyo> That wasn't changed before/after deus ex machina.
07:54:47 <Pipian> I disagree: they fought for a wish
07:54:55 <Pipian> the end
07:55:06 <Pipian> And generally speaking, that wish was subverted
07:55:25 <Pipian> Now I'll agree that it's not obvious whether wish subversion continued in the revamped world
07:56:33 <Puyopuyo> They were still granted their wish and forced to fight for it in the revamped world, so how has that changed?
07:57:23 <Pipian> The second half of the equation has been removed
07:57:45 <Pipian> Benefits gained != curses caused
07:58:03 <Pipian> (although the exact quote suggests that curses still exist, but it's unclear how)
07:58:49 <Pipian> (It could be in a more traditional sense in which despair will always exist, but the strict karmic cycle is broken)
07:59:12 <Pipian> But yeah, basically, the difference is that the karmic cycle is kaput in the revamped world
07:59:44 <Pipian> Keeping in mind that there are no karmic cycles in the traditional magical girl scenario either.
07:59:54 <Pipian> (i.e. magical girls exclusively do good)
08:00:03 <Pipian> (rather than equal amounts of good and evil)
08:03:33 <Puyopuyo> That's not clear.
08:03:47 <Puyopuyo> And is more your interpretation than what's strictly stated.
08:04:05 <Pipian> There's very little that's explicitly stated
08:04:16 <Pipian> So I'll give you that the reconstruction is not entirely a given
08:04:33 <Puyopuyo> What we do see is that there are still curses, and puella magi burn themselves out with magic and vanish opposed to becoming witches.
08:04:36 <Pipian> But it's certainly a plausible conclusion that could be made and argued in a literary journal
08:05:00 <Puyopuyo> You could argue that Evangelion reconstructed in a literary journal by means of the movies being a sequel to the series.
08:05:11 <Pipian> Sure
08:05:25 <Pipian> I mean, there's not a lot to go on with the reconstruction angle, I'll grant you
08:05:44 <Pipian> But even so, the deconstruction is obvious, and not observed in any other magical girl anime to date as far as I'm aware.
08:06:07 <Puyopuyo> The deconstruction being what exactly, just to clarify?
08:07:29 <Puyopuyo> Because as far as I'm concerned, fighting for a wish (generally to help someone or something, even if it's themselves) is completely within the magical girl trope.
08:07:42 <Puyopuyo> The reprecussions being unexpected...still within the trope.
08:08:21 <Pipian> The repercussions being universally negative are usually not.
08:08:46 <Puyopuyo> How were they universally negative?
08:08:48 <Pipian> I mean, even if the repercussions are initially negative, most shows end up balancing it by the end by bringing in a new/better love interest, etc.
08:09:14 <Pipian> The magical girls were cursed to turn into witches and bring about an equal amount of bad for all the good they brought into the world
08:09:26 <Pipian> thus, since the sole good they do is through their wish
08:09:43 <Pipian> Everything after that point is, at best, net negative to balance the wish
08:11:02 <Puyopuyo> Unless of course, their soul gem was destroyed, in which case they did no such thing, as demonstrated by Kyoko.
08:11:29 <Pipian> Kyoko had already caused her family to die in murder/suicide
08:11:38 <Pipian> I would say that worked out in the balance to be pretty negative
08:11:56 <Pipian> Yeah, you can avoid the witchdom if you die beforehand (see Mami for another example)
08:12:38 <Puyopuyo> Where was Mami's net negative?
08:12:43 <Pipian> But without seeing a lot of Mami, it's hard to say whether or not she was, at best, net neutral.
08:13:37 <Pipian> I mean, I guess you could argue that she had no semblance of immediate family
08:13:42 <Pipian> Through whatever means
08:14:09 <Pipian> Mami is probably not helpful for either side of the argument since we simply know too little about her situation
08:14:54 <Puyopuyo> I'm afraid I don't agree with deconstruction, so much as slight subversion.
08:15:26 <Pipian> I mean, basically, what a deconstruction is, is that it basically looks at the core tenets of a particular work
08:15:58 <Pipian> and examines them within alternate contexts to demonstrate how the core tenets can actually create a drastically different and perhaps contradictory outcome
08:16:10 <Pipian> Which I think is pretty straightforwardly argued.
08:16:28 <Pipian> Just as you say, there are plenty of magical girl tropes (indeed, almost all of the important ones are there)
08:17:11 <Pipian> It's the contextualization of the tropes in an alternate context (i.e. the negative/dark context in which ultimately, a magical girl's end is in despair) which makes it a deconstruction
08:18:11 <Pipian> But we're talking post-modern thought/literature, which I will freely admit I am no expert on and can't really confidently be quoted in interpreting correctly.  I'll defer to the crazy literary critics/analysts to write some bullshit and put it into Mechademia instead.
08:18:57 <Puyopuyo> Fair enough.
08:19:34 <Pipian> But that's why I'd consider Madoka to be a good show from a literary standpoint.
08:19:48 <Puyopuyo> Would you consider Evangelion to be a good show from a literary standpoint?
08:20:09 <Pipian> I am unqualified to make that argument as I've never seen anything past episode 13/14?
08:21:02 <Pipian> Eva was probably trying too hard
08:21:11 <Pipian> If I had to make a rough guesstimate
08:21:21 <Puyopuyo> (Or in other words: Regardless of enjoyment, would you argue that something that successfully uses somewhat avant-garde literary devices is a good show from a literary standpoint?)
08:21:54 <Pipian> (Well that's the question, isn't it?  Did Evangelion even successfully use the devices it's purported to use?)
08:22:00 <Puyopuyo> I don't agree with that particularly.
08:22:05 <Puyopuyo> (About as successfully as Madoka.)
08:22:42 <Puyopuyo> (After all, it did gather the undying interest of its fans for several decades, and kitsch has NEVER had that kind of staying power.)
08:23:02 <Puyopuyo> (In fact, kitsch by definition cannot have that staying power, to my understanding.)
08:24:07 <Puyopuyo> Though if this is what avant-garde anime are going to be like, I should probably stay away from them.
08:24:22 <Pipian> (Well, whether or not a thing is successful does not mean it successfully executes a proper deconstruction)
08:24:31 <Pipian> I think avant-garde is the wrong term to use
08:24:35 <Pipian> So much as post-modern
08:24:59 <Pipian> Deconstructionist maybe
08:25:12 <Puyopuyo> Isn't post-modernism avant-garde?
08:25:31 <Pipian> No, actually.
08:25:42 <Pipian> Avant garde is basically experimental culture
08:25:43 <Puyopuyo> Yeah, I'm reading a definition on wikipedia.
08:25:53 <Puyopuyo> Avant-garde is high modernism vs post-modernism.
08:26:02 <Puyopuyo> I'm going to go with "I hate art criticism."
08:26:24 <Pipian> That's something I can get behind.
08:27:01 <Pipian> In short, I thought Madoka was a fine show.  Initial gut feeling is definitely in the 9-10 range
08:27:12 <Puyopuyo> I think you're in the majority there.
08:28:03 <Puyopuyo> I think I'm in the minority with giving it a 5, stating "While it's an interesting take on how to subvert the traditional concepts and roles of a magical girl series, all in all it's ars pecunia gratis and nothing more."
08:28:46 <Puyopuyo> Especially with the bow-neat set up for a sequel.
08:29:03 <Puyopuyo> Admittedly my scale has a lot more 2s and 3s than the average scale.
08:29:51 <Pipian> I'm a little uneasy with the sequel setup, I agree
08:30:01 <Pipian> But it's still pretty nicely wrapped up in and of itself
08:30:09 <Puyopuyo> Especially with the already existing announcement of "I plan to make a happy sequel"
08:30:25 <Puyopuyo> I think had that been saved, it would have been less blatantly bothersome.
08:30:29 <Pipian> Yes, well that happy sequel was mentioned to potentially be "What is Madoka's mom's life?"
08:30:34 <Pipian> So YMMV
08:30:41 <Pipian> And given that it's so popular
08:30:49 <Pipian> A sequel is practically a given no matter how it ends up
08:30:49 <Puyopuyo> So what's your interpretation of the post-credits sequence?
08:31:13 <Pipian> Hold up
08:31:33 <Puyopuyo> ?
08:35:09 <Pipian> Bac
08:35:13 <Pipian> Was getting something to eat
08:35:17 <Pipian> My interpretation?
08:35:25 <Puyopuyo> Yeah
08:35:50 <Pipian> It doesn't strike me as necessarily indicative of the content of any sequel to me per se
08:35:54 <Pipian> I mean it certainly COULD
08:36:31 <Pipian> It strikes me more of an epilogue than anything else
08:37:46 <Puyopuyo> Oh, I concur.
08:39:39 <Pipian> I find myself siding with the interpretation that it suggests that Homura's wish is inherently tied to her last discussion with Madoka, being that she wishes to meet with her again
08:39:57 <Pipian> I mean, given that Madoka doesn't exist in this world, but Homura is a magical girl, the basis of her wish is unknown
08:40:09 <Pipian> And completely up for grabs
08:40:36 <Pipian> But for completeness's sake is probably indirectly tied to Madoka in any case.
08:40:37 <Puyopuyo> Given that she still remembers Madoka and the universe that existed before, you're right, pretty much anything is up for grabs.
08:42:54 <Pipian> But in any case, such a wish effectively puts Homura in a unique position among magical girls
08:43:41 <Pipian> Hence why her battles are (plausibly) so intense
08:44:14 <Pipian> (in so far as it seems like the Magical Beasts seem to be rather numerous for her to deal with)
08:48:14 <Pipian> I mean, the interesting thing about the post-script is that it can be read both ways
08:48:33 <Pipian> That Madoka is always fighting for Homura, and thus Homura is not alone
08:49:08 <Pipian> And vice versa, that Homura is always fighting to meet Madoka again, and thus Madoka should never think of herself as alone
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19:33:51 <nathanbp|laptop> oh boy Sam/Ian Madoka smackdown
19:34:01 <nathanbp|laptop> now I've got something to read :D
19:34:43 <Puyopuyo> >_>
19:34:53 <Puyopuyo> We are not here to dance for your entertainment!
19:39:54 <nathanbp|laptop> Both of you, dance like you want to win? *ducks*
19:41:52 <nathanbp|laptop> The major magical girl trope that Madoka breaks is that people actually die
19:43:01 <Puyopuyo> ...how's that?
19:43:09 <Puyopuyo> Sailor Moon had characters actually dying.
19:45:21 <nathanbp|laptop> Not really? they all come back in the end?
19:47:02 <Puyopuyo> In which season?
19:47:21 <Puyopuyo> Even as early as the first season, we have characters like Nephrite who are all "I have become a good guy" *IS BRUTALLY MURDERED*
19:47:48 <Puyopuyo> Also, really Nathan? "They all come back in the end" is your counter-argument?
19:47:55 <Puyopuyo> Shall I point out that as of post-retcon, Mami is alive again?
19:50:15 <nathanbp|laptop> I was thinking more Stars where everyone comes back than the bad guys that get killed
19:51:32 <Puyopuyo> I haven't seen the ending of Stars. Mostly because I couldn't get through Stars.
19:51:39 <Puyopuyo> I should try again one day.
19:51:50 <nathanbp|laptop> I can't say that it's really worth it...
19:52:04 <Puyopuyo> Well, the problem with Stars is the power level is...pretty much god-level.
19:52:13 <nathanbp|laptop> although I will admit to being surprised that Emily hasn't shown you all of it
19:52:46 <Puyopuyo> It's on Emily's "list", which are series that she gets annoyed about that I haven't watched, demands that I watch them, and I keep putting it off.
19:53:56 <nathanbp|laptop> just read the manga instead it'll be much shorter
19:54:12 <Puyopuyo> Isn't that manga far more depressing?
19:54:23 <Puyopuyo> To my understanding, the manga was pretty much an endless loop of godhood and despair.
19:54:33 <Puyopuyo> Which would be rather applicable to Madoka.
19:55:13 <nathanbp|laptop> I recall the stars manga as being more like 8 chapters of killing off all the characters, followed by 1 chapter of bringing them all back to life and wining....
19:55:34 <nathanbp|laptop> I think I read it too fast to be depressed?
19:57:03 <Puyopuyo> I thought the implication was "Yes, they all came back, but Moon is destined to become the Chaos, time jump and cause everything"
19:57:22 <nathanbp|laptop> anyways I feel like Madoka approached killing off magical girls in a more serious way than anything else has before
19:57:37 <nathanbp|laptop> I don't remember it well enough.....
20:02:27 <nathanbp|laptop> hmmm Yen Press slipping more...
20:02:47 <nathanbp|laptop> Hidamari Sketch volume 5 slipped another month, Kobato volume 4 2 months...
20:05:55 <nathanbp|laptop> help you all need to buy their books so they'll keep publishing the spice and wolf novels
20:06:07 <Puyopuyo> ....I don't like any of these series!
20:07:14 <nathanbp|laptop> not even spice and wolf?
20:17:26 <Puyopuyo> Not particularly.
20:24:13 <Pipian> You're confusing Sam with me
20:31:34 <nathanbp|laptop> great, Ian, buy all those series to support Yen Press
20:32:26 <Pipian> well
20:32:30 <Pipian> mostly just spice and wolf
20:32:36 <Pipian> and maybe hidamari sketch i guess